This is a transcript of a Facebook argument between myself and a couple of kids that I go to law school with. Names have been redacted.
Starting with comments about the Los Angeles Clippers and the Baron Davis move, the conversation quickly became heated after an unprovoked attack on one of the NBA’s best players, LeBron James. Because it is such a long conversation, I am putting in bold the most provocative arguments, and a few editor's notes along the way.
As a call for sanity, can someone please affirm that I'm dealing with a fucking idiot?
Egyptian Kid who flunked out and blamed it on the situation in Egypt: Hey Clippers.... are you like, TRYING to suck even more? come on now, mo williams??? wow
Fucking Tool Who Wears One Sweatshirt:
They should just be playing Bledsoe and building for the future anyway, but I bet Mo plays. As long as he isn't in the playoffs, he's okay.
Egyptian Kid: Mo will play, Baron however, will drag out his "knee injury" and i highly doubt he dresses for cleveland. im trying to understand the rest of the mistakes going on in the nba today
Fucking Tool: Tons of craziness. Exciting, though.
We’ll call this kid 2 Cents, because he’s an OK guy: Fucking Tool, "As long as he isn't in the playoffs, he's okay." The same might be said for lebreezy.
Fucking Tool: True story. Everyone hypes that fluke 3 he hit in the playoffs to beat Orlando, conveniently forgetting he completely gave up versus the Celtics. Lebron is a playoff loser who rubbed off on Mo [Playoff loser? Who singlehandedly dismantled the Detroit Pistons in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals?]
Me: OH COME ON MAN. GAVE UP? he had one bad game (game 5) where he shot 3-14 from the floor. the dude posted a 27pt, 10ast, 19reb TRIPLE DOUBLE in game 6. people who say he quit in that series clearly weren't watching him carry the entire team on his back. who wouldnt be dejected when mo williams and anthony parker combine to shoot 3-16 in game 2? haters gonna hate i guess.
Me: Miami heat your 2011 eastern conference champions
2 Cents: i picked the heat to win it all before the season started, but after "the decision." I'm not hating, i'm just saying, when push comes to shove, the legends win. we'll see.
Me: I am in complete agreement that "the decision" was a poor move, I don't think anyone disputes that. But let's not forget the highly under-reported tidbit of that the $2.5 million dollars in ad revenue was given directly to the boys and girls club of America. [All for the kids!]
Toolio: How often is the 4th-best team in the East crowned champions? :)
They will not beat Boston or Chicago in a 7-game series, and probably not Orlando, either. 2nd round and done, just like Flash before Shaq.
Tool: To be clear, haters will indeed hate. But respect is also earned, not given, and until Lebronze wins a ring, he gets no respect, no deference, not benefit of any doubt. Couldn't even win a gold medal without Kobe and Melo to carry him
Egyptian Kid: all i know is that in miami two guys are fighting over who gets to be batman and whos robin and then you have batgirl on the side (who goes 1-18 today). thats not championship anything. boston is a team of manchamps and my only respect on that squad of children is for d-wade who let shaq guide him to being the best player on that championship team. until leboy wins a finals series against a legit team hell never be what my man, and his new daddy after being dunked on in the ASG, Kobe already is.
Me: Oh my goodness. I could talk for hours about this, but to start, the only real threat to the heat is chicago. The kendrick perkins trade today leaves boston without any actual center. If the celtics truly believe that the O'Neal brothers and nenad kristic can play center in the playoffs, then god bless them, but they are sorely mistaken. I would take erick(a) dampier as my starting center before i put any of those three in there to bang with dwight.
Orlando is a complete mess. They have surrounded the best center in the league with 4 guys who are supposed to hit the 3, but its impossible for them to find any open looks when most of their offensive possessions start with the ball being dumped to Dwight in the post, and when he draws the foul (a league leading 11.4 free throw attempts per game), he only hits 59% of his "free" throws. A recipe for success? Highly doubtful.
With Noah back and Boozer and Rose playing as well as they have been, chicago will be tough to beat. I am dick riding chicago right now because derrick rose is the MVP, and keeping Noah instead of trading him for Melo will pay off in the long run. But even tonight, they won by 4 in a game where chris bosh went 1-18 from the floor. Bosh has been playing great as of late, and this game is clearly an aberration.
Let's talk about rings for a second. I am desperately awaiting the day that Adam Morrison's championship rings go on ebay, considering he's going to need cash at some point, and he's got two of them any way. My respect for Lebron stems from his unbelieve athletic ability and the FACT that he is the most complete player since magic johnson. You cannot expect him to have won in cleveland with that ridiculous group of guys they called a supporting cast. That point is PROVEN by the cavaliers dismal record thus far.
Rings don't mean SHIT when it comes to respecting a players game. No respect without a ring? Tell that to Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton and Karl Malone. HATERS WILL HATE
Fuckin Tool: Don't forget Chicago. Noah annihilates Bosh, and Rose is possibly the best player in the NBA. Not to mention Boozer, who will always have a place in my heart for getting out of town when Lebronze was drafted; he knew well before the rest of us what his nature truly was. Loser and backstabber
Me: For the record, my only REAL problem with this whole conversation is the unbelievable amount of hate the media has instilled in people towards lebron james, including this idea that people know what lebron's "true nature" is. Have you met the guy? Do you really know what he is all about other than winning basketball games? The east is deep this year, and I will be the first to say Chicago looks great. Cant wait for the playoffs.
Fuckin Tool (Does this guy ever quit?): None of the players you named, JP, are top-20 players historically, OR the best at their position. [The players I named: S
And Lebron is FAR from complete, let alone "the most complete player since Magic Johnson." For starters, 35% 3-point shooting and 75% FT shooting is far from impressive;solid, but not impressive. He has no low-post game outside of his athletic ability. His defense is completely predicated on his athleticism as well; he has little skill, but makes up for it with pure athleticism; that does not, however make him good at defense. Finally, 3.7 TOs-per-game is horrible for someone who shares primary ballhandling duty with Flash.
Ask yourself where Lebron will be in 5 years when his athleticism has passed, and he's running on pure skill. Will you still think he's "complete"? He'd average 8 ppg if he were down to Kobe's athleticism, and that's the most damning argument against him being a "Complete" player
Tool: The media built Lebron, hyping him since his freshman year in high school, before he'd proven anything. It seems a bit ridiculous to then trash them for pointing out he's selfish, a liar, and has no loyalty.
And if Lebron is "All about" winning basketball games, he's awfully bad at his job. He thinks he's great at it, though, since he celebrates like he won the lottery after beating random teams in the regular season. [Ah yes, posting a .663 win % over the last 5 years ABSOLUTELY makes him bad at winning basketball games]
Egypt: i cant wait for the playoffs to start to jp, but let me tell u something my dear friend... those guys you mentioned are classy individuals that largely played for ONE team and they were THE MAN on that team. were not talking about the adam morrisons of the league or the rest of the role playing rubbish that teams have. im talking about a fundamental respect of the game, its fans, its purpose, its franchises, and its ideologies as far as being the franchise player and screwing over a whole city to create a powerhouse of other little boys on another team. its all about the kind of guy that a player is off the court as well as on it. D-Rose is my MVP too this year (and everyones im always on kobes sack so thats a huge step for me) but its because hes humble, coachable and a proven TEAMmate. it took kobe forever to learn that and it looks like lebaby is gonna have to learn it too.
Top guys to respect without rings: Jerry Sloan, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Pat Ewing, Reggie Miller, George Karl, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Dwight Howard, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin. all of these guys share humility above all (except chuck)
Tool: All those retired guys you mentioned: choke artists. [Let's recap who these "choke artists" are: Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton and Karl Malone] Couldn't win in June (or make it there). Especially considering how many played in the mid-90s, when the NBA was at its weakest, it's sad to even mention those guys with the greats now. Send Timmy or KG back to 1990 and see how many rings they win. Malone is Amare with less athleticism and a history of statutory rape.
The Voice of Reason (Me): I truly believe your argument is based more on general hate than appreciation for the game. I encourage you to attend the Player Hater's Ball where you might be in the running for the coveted "Hater of the Year" title. I cannot understand how without meeting the fellow, or holding a conversation with him, that you can deem him "selfish, a liar, and [lacks] loyalty", based on a decision to leave a franchise where he had no contractual obligation, and won 60 regular season games in back to back seasons.
I have respect for every great player in the league, including Lebron James, who boasts a 28pt/7reb/7ast average for his short but clearly dominant career. As a Yankee fan, I despise the city of Boston and everything they stand for. But I harbor no ill will for Ray Allen (obviously) and even appreciate the intensity that Kevin Garnett brings to the game, even if he has the audacity to call alopecia stricken Charlie Villanueva a cancer patient. [Note: I do have a small issue with Paul Pierce being taken off the court in a wheelchair, only to return to score 15 points in the 3rd quarter of game 1 of the 2008 NBA finals. Sorry McKeevah, but all that was missing was a bloody sock] I greatly admire Carmelo Anthony and his ability to score. I am even more impressed with Kobe Bryant's seemingly inherent ability to make huge shots in the 4th quarter of games. There is truth to his characterization of himself as the Mariano Rivera of the NBA. But to say that Lebron James would average 8ppg in 5 years is not only ludicrous, it's asinine.
What is good defense in today's NBA, where basically every great scorer is an athletic beast off the dribble? The key to defense is lateral movement. Quickness in your lateral movement probably has something to do with athleticism no? The only case where great defense has not been defined by lateral movement are the tenacious defenders such as Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier and to some degree, Ron Artest.
In conclusion, I must reiterate that your arguments are based on general hate. "All those retired guys you mentioned: choke artists". I don't think many if any people with knowledge of the NBA would consider Reggie Miller, Steve Nash and Patrick Ewing, choke artists. Again, I will send you the application for the Player Hater's Ball
Conclusory Tool: Saying someone "Hates" another person doesn't prove its irrational or unfounded; hate can be completely logical and deserved.
Lebron held an entire city hostage [Holy shit, I did not realize that we were dealing with fucking Hans Gruber here], telling them he didn't know what he wanted to do. Does anyone really believe that? He absolutely screwed Cleveland, the state he grew up in, professed his love for, promised to bring a championship to. He's either a liar or a failure (or both).
And no, his career has not been "Dominant". 1 Finals appearance in 7 years, are you kidding? He peaked early, and now he is looking for other allstars to carry him. [Hmm... peaked early. Back to back MVPs? FINISH HIM!] He has pretty stats, but stats don't prove you're dominant; wins do.
And athleticism does not equal defense; athleticism equals athleticism. The guys you mentioned above: Bowen, Battier, Artest, they are far from the most athletic guys in the league, but they are, or were, its best defenders, and that title was based on skill. I understand the need to lessen or marginalize the role of skill in being a great player; if I were a Lebronze fan, I'd try that too. Because based on skill OR results, Lebronze is not in any great player discussion.
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